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Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Suggestions for new features for Magic.
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Terry Payman
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Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

When creating a video, it's often desirable to be able to punctuate an existing (perhaps relatively uneventful) sequence with a "blip" of something else.
One does not want any previous or subsequent content changed. This would be known as an "overwrite edit" in video terms.
I find this frustratingly difficult in Magic at present, as it only has "insert edit", which requires the timing of subsequent scenes to be restored manually. :x
http://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/usi ... ences.html

I'll try to illustrate what I mean. Suppose I start with a playlist with two scenes, each running for 5 seconds.
1111122222
I then want to overwrite a third 2-second scene, starting at an arbitrary time.
1111133222
or perhaps
1111332222
or even
1133122222

I wish only to specify start- and stop-time ( or start-time & duration) of the overwriting scene, and not to have to manually adjust duration or start times of any existing scenes.
I know there are implications in my final example for the timings of scene 1 to be reset. I'm happy to work round that if it ever proves problematic.

There are lots of other neat facilities in video editing that would hugely enhance Magic when used for videos. This one is top of my list.
Timeline trimming is next, in case anyone's anxious to know :D http://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/usi ... _header_11
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Magic »

Sure, that sounds reasonable. But as it stands now, it's really only two entries that need to be edited, right? The new one and the one after it? Just want to make sure I'm understanding.
Terry Payman
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

Eric wrote:.. it's really only two entries that need to be edited, right? ...
Yes, two if the overwrite is over the end/beginning of scenes, as in my first two examples. It's just a nuisance having to make a note of the previous start time of the following scene and very carefully restore it afterwards.

However, if the overwrite is partway through a scene, as in my final example, there's an additional requirement to create a further playlist entry for the remaining part of the original scene.

It's a long way removed from the fluidity with which one can work (real-time!) with multi-cam footage in a video editing program, which I guess is what I really want. There one can just swap scenes arbitrarily as the video plays and the program records the new sequence on-the-fly. Afterwards one can fine-trim the result.

With a multi-cam edit one gets to see all the scenes running simultaneously, which in Magic could need every potential scene to be pre-rendered at low-res for the full duration of the music track. (Not that I'd mind at all. I'd be ecstatic if I could do "multi-cam" in Magic!)

Simpler, and fulfilling the ultimate aim of what I was asking for here, would be to have a "scene record" mode as the track plays:
1) Use Playlist "audio file control", but with option to loop between an arbitrary start and stop time in the track.
2) Run the track, making scene choices/changes as desired (as the previous scene sequence plays).
3) Record the times at which the new manual scene choices were made.
4) Optionally "Play back" the edit.
5) Optionally trim the timing of a selected point of scene change forward or backward until OK,
6) Optionally swap to a different new scene whilst keeping the timings of the previous swap.
7) Optionally commit those changes to the playlist, with Magic generating/deleting/changing playlist entries and restoring timing as necessary.

If done in a purpose-created window (ideally with thumbnails of each scene for the selection), the present functionality of the playlist would be completely unchanged, only its data.
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

... perhaps have option to export and import playlists, in the same way as one can export/import Edit Decision Lists with video editing software?
... could fit in naturally as the interface needed for the above proposed editing window.
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Magic »

Simpler, and fulfilling the ultimate aim of what I was asking for here, would be to have a "scene record" mode as the track plays
That sounds much more complicated to me! :) I think it would be simpler to have an option to preserve the start time of the following scene, which I believe is an easy fix.
It's a long way removed from the fluidity with which one can work (real-time!) with multi-cam footage in a video editing program, which I guess is what I really want. There one can just swap scenes arbitrarily as the video plays and the program records the new sequence on-the-fly. Afterwards one can fine-trim the result.
I have to be careful not to make Magic into a video editing program, because I'll never be able to compete with Premiere, Final Cut Pro, etc. That being said though, I do think some kind of Timeline editor is a good idea, as discussed here: http://magicmusicvisuals.com/forums/vie ... ?f=4&t=139
perhaps have option to export and import playlists, in the same way as one can export/import Edit Decision Lists with video editing software?
That's a definite possibility. :)
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

Eric wrote:I think it would be simpler to have an option to preserve the start time of the following scene, which I believe is an easy fix.
:D That would be very helpful, especially if one could preset for inserted scenes
- default duration
- default transition type
- default transition time
:D
Eric wrote:I have to be careful not to make Magic into a video editing program, because I'll never be able to compete with Premiere, Final Cut Pro, etc.
With great respect, I'm requesting performance, not video editing. There's no competition with video editing, just incorporation of an equivalent (and very efficient) real-time workflow. Perform - trim - done!

In my video editing facility I let musician clients do their own multicam edit of their live performance video:
- the sound track replays in real time, start-to-finish.
- all the camera angles are displayed simultaneously.
- they choose between the angles by clicking the screen on their desired angle, or
- they choose between the angles by hitting 1/2/3 etc on the keyboard (sometimes with intricate rhythms).
By simply recording scene choices real-time as the track plays, we can get a nearly-finished video in the time it takes to play through the song once.
Eric wrote:I do think some kind of Timeline editor is a good idea, as discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=139
AniRhythm wrote:... the controller allows real time effect changes, but also records the performance as the effects are being changed - so after your performance, you can go back on a linear timeline to change / tweak your recorded performance ...would definitely make this software one of a kind
I'm only asking for a subset of this functionality, just recording/editing scene changes, not module parameters too.
Eric wrote: ...It has actually been a little challenging for us to come up with a system that works equally well for live performances and for creating videos. If you have any suggestions, please let me know.
http://magicmusicvisuals.com/forums/vie ... p=578#p367
Please consider all the above as my initial response to your request ;)
Eric wrote:
...perhaps have option to export and import playlists, in the same way as one can export/import Edit Decision Lists with video editing software?
That's a definite possibility. :)
:D
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Magic »

That would be very helpful, especially if one could preset for inserted scenes
- default duration
- default transition type
- default transition time
Have you tried using the "Duplicate entry" menu option? That's basically what it does.
There's no competition with video editing, just incorporation of an equivalent (and very efficient) real-time workflow. Perform - trim - done!
I didn't mean "compete" from a feature perspective, but rather, from a man-hours perspective. It would actually be quite complicated to implement such functionality. Not impossible though :).
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

Eric wrote:
That would be very helpful, especially if one could preset for inserted scenes
- default duration
- default transition type
- default transition time
Have you tried using the "Duplicate entry" menu option? That's basically what it does.
Thanks, I tried and it's helpful. However, it seems I have to mentally compute a start time that is my desired duration later than the previous entry and then change the inserted scene duration accordingly, or turn off "Show Start Times", enter my desired duration, and revert to "Show Start Times". Then change transition parameters. Then copy.
Defaults that I could change would be handy. Could usefully apply to "New entry" or "Insert". Plenty of space next to the "Add entry" button for all the requested defaults ;)
Eric wrote:
There's no competition with video editing, just incorporation of an equivalent (and very efficient) real-time workflow. Perform - trim - done!
I didn't mean "compete" from a feature perspective, but rather, from a man-hours perspective. It would actually be quite complicated to implement such functionality. Not impossible though :).
Isn't my requested "performance capture" just a series of paired entries, of [scene-choice, time]? Surely not too far from the present playlist format ;) . That plus your suggested "hold" on scene start time when editing the resultant playlist would do virtually everything I need.
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Magic »

Isn't my requested "performance capture" just a series of paired entries, of [scene-choice, time]?
I know it seems simple, but it isn't. Trust me :).
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

Eric wrote:I know it seems simple, but it isn't. Trust me :).
I accept the word of the Master on the internal structure of his Masterwork, but remain mystified.
Eric wrote:
...perhaps have option to export and import playlists, in the same way as one can export/import Edit Decision Lists with video editing software?
That's a definite possibility. :)
Playlist import is all I'd need to do the job. I'd just need to build a stand-alone app/system that drove Magic scene changes via MIDI as the track played, recorded the time of the MIDI commands and built a corresponding playlist ready to be imported.
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Magic »

I accept the word of the Master on the internal structure of his Masterwork, but remain mystified.
Lol. Thank you kindly sir :).
Playlist import is all I'd need to do the job. I'd just need to build a stand-alone app/system that drove Magic scene changes via MIDI as the track played, recorded the time of the MIDI commands and built a corresponding playlist ready to be imported.
Ok, I'll look into that. You might also want to check out the software that was suggested in the Timeline thread: http://www.duration.cc/. I don't know if it has direct MIDI support but I'm pretty sure there are good third-party tools for OSC/MIDI conversion.
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Re: Playlist: Option to "Overwrite" as well as "Insert"

Post by Terry Payman »

:D Many thanks Eric! :D
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